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hamloaf
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Senescence Discussion Thread. 1
#24625937 - 09/13/17 11:09 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Does it exist, or does it not? If senescence does exist to what degree does it affect our grows? Have you ever experianced senescence first hand? If senescence doesn't exist what the heck good is a p-value then? I've noticed weakened culture from transferring cloned culture too many times, as well as too many g2gs.
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Steelballa
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: hamloaf] 1
#24626093 - 09/13/17 11:55 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
hamloaf said: Does it exist, or does it not? If senescence does exist to what degree does it affect our grows? Have you ever experianced senescence first hand? If senescence doesn't exist what the heck good is a p-value then? I've noticed weakened culture from transferring cloned culture too many times, as well as too many g2gs.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/8626926 check this thread out bruh
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WeavieWonder
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Steelballa] 1
#24626108 - 09/13/17 12:01 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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If senescence is a thing, would it be safe to say that most people at the hobby level will ever experience such a thing?
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Wienerwoods
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: WeavieWonder] 1
#24626154 - 09/13/17 12:22 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Depends entirely on how you do your shit. If you don't preserve slants or something but continue cultivating generations of the same cultures you're pretty much guaranteed to run into problems eventually. I kept going for 3-4 months this spring and started seeing weaker and weaker growth until I decided it's time to start over from spores. Fruiting capabilities were still decent at that point but colonization was slow and the mycelium looked wispy and weak.
I'm nearing that point with my new cultures right now but I already have four jars of multispore grain spawn ready to go. This time I will keep three of them in the fridge so I reckon I should be good for 6 months or more.
Edit: oh yeah and point being I consider myself a hobbyist
Edited by Wienerwoods (09/13/17 12:23 PM)
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foragedfungus



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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Wienerwoods] 2
#24626167 - 09/13/17 12:30 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Got me reading on the subject. Here's some (copy/pasted) notes.
There are different definitions and types of senescence.
Organismal senescence - the aging of whole organisms. In general, aging is characterized by the declining ability to respond to stress, increased homeostatic imbalance, and increased risk of aging-associated diseases Cellular senescence- phenomenon by which normal cells cease to divide. Replicative senescence is the result of telomere shortening that ultimately triggers a DNA damage response
It was once thought that senescence did not occur in single-celled organisms that reproduce through the process of cellular mitosis.[36] Recent investigation has unveiled a more complex picture. Single cells do accumulate age-related damage. On mitosis the debris is not evenly divided between the new cells. Instead it passes to one of the cells leaving the other cell pristine. With successive generations the cell population becomes a mosaic of cells with half ageless and the rest with varying degrees of senescence.
Vegetatively propogated cultures are virtually immortal, with a potential for unlimited growth. Deleterious mutant genes and gene combinations are expected eventually to accumulate and slow or terminate growth even in normal growing, nonsenescent cultures. Occasional outcrossing can purge the genome of the accumulated defective genes, but in the absence of genetic recombination, deleterious mutations are expected ultimately to result in death of a serially propogated normal culture.
In many fungi the peripheral hyphae become senescent after prolonged vegetative growth, that is, their growth rate decreases and they eventually die. In some fungi, senescence is caused by transmissible elements
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mushboy
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: mushboy] 1
#24626199 - 09/13/17 12:43 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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I asked workman a few weeks back about senescence. He replied that what we think is issues related to senescence may not be senescence. Even for him its not a well understood phenomenon. He also pointed to epigenetics playing a roll. Where gene expression is modified but the DNA isnt. The genotype stays the phenotype changes. Hence the possibility of lagging performance. This can be caused by stress or staying on the same media/substrate
Workman also said cloning a clone isn't as terrible as people make it out to be and should in most cases be totally fine.
In reality we all don't know. We fit the "excuse" to match our experience. Since we can't conduct anything other than empirical research we guess in the dark.
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psilly the kid
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: mushboy] 1
#24626203 - 09/13/17 12:44 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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bodhisatta 
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A good example of vegetative organisms beating/fighting senescence is the honey mushroom. In Oregon theres a patch thats like 2.5 square miles and estimated to be 2000+ years old.
Same goes for yeast. Theres some breweries juggling their original culture just from batch to batch with no lab or cold storage for more than a few decades
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ob1kinsmokey
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Steelballa] 3
#24626257 - 09/13/17 01:04 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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That thread, like many others has basically no information in it other than trusted peoples experiences. Which is great but it leaves so many questions unanswered, especially for anyone interested in what's really happening. Probably because its still a mysterious process.
Honestly I've scoured the entirety of these forums and youtube looking for more information on senescence. I've found very little info on studies or applied experiments in regards to how senescence occurs in different strains, in different mediums, etc.
To answer your question though, yes it undoubtedly exists, as in most eukaryotes and complex lifeforms. There are some things we know for certain based on human studies I've found. We human share this caveat with fungi, in that our DNA "ages" as it replicates over time. The DNA have telomeres that help protect the tip of the DNA from damage. Like a little cap that helps protect the DNA below it from damage. After each replication these telomeres become shorter and shorter. Once these telomeres have become very short, DNA damage becomes more prevalent during replication, and the cell sounds the alarm to signal the engine that it shouldn't be copied any more. Once a cell reaches this state it is said to be a senescent cell. The entire process of a cells telomeres becoming shorter after each replication is in a nutshell, the Aging Process. Damage occurs, cells become weaker and thus more prone to disease, etc. Many factors can affect how the aging process occurs in one genetic subject, and it isn't uniform across all cells (I believe).
How many replications can occur before Senescence? In humans (or maybe more?) this is around 60 copies before replicative senescence sets in. How many copies a cell can undergo is refereed to as its Hayflick limit. The Hayflick limit and longevity of the telomeres varies wildly in the lifeforms and less so within species, some things such as hydra being almost "immortal" (never decaying).
Other environmental factors can affect how quickly telomeres become shortened, such as calorie restriction or nutrient diversity. Which IMO points to growth medium being a major factor. For instance LC vs. a slant for the same period of time. Or multiple g2g transfers of smaller grain amounts vs. larger grain amounts.
I'm very curious how this aging process looks in Psilocybes. Like other genetic traits I think it can be singled out and healthier strains can age slower and have more longevity. Which likely is already happening when people single out aggressive healthy sectors.
The whole subject fascinates me and I hope to find out more about how senescence is effected by each method of growing.
Research senescence in humans is a great start to understanding it, here is a good reference for you if youre interested: Telomeres and cell senescence | Cells | MCAT | Khan Academy
All of this is just my opinion based on my research
Edited by ob1kinsmokey (09/13/17 01:07 PM)
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psilly the kid
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: ob1kinsmokey] 1
#24626268 - 09/13/17 01:06 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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so is there any studies on those yeast cultures that we can apply here or with that honey mushroom
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cronicr



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I would replicate this same thread in gourmet...as a hobby most active growers will never experience these issues but most like myself will see it with edibles which we expand a lot further as it all boils down to a buck
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bodhisatta 
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Quote:
psilly the kid said: so is there any studies on those yeast cultures that we can apply here or with that honey mushroom
Ill get back once i get to my home computer. Saccharomyces repairs itself actually.
Older cells that have budded many times accumulate bud scars and eventually weigh more thus naturally separating the older cells too
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ob1kinsmokey
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#24626381 - 09/13/17 01:48 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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These are my 2 outstanding questions on this subject:
How far you can go before cloning specifically, isn't viable anymore. Like for example if you do 4 grain to grain transfers each from daughter jars, and you find a great fruit, would it even be worth it to clone it and clean it up and save it? Since those fruit body cells are many days old from their original germination/grain master?
Same with a 3rd or 4th flush. The growth has slowed way down for other reasons beside aging, presumably. You find a great fruit. Is it even worth it to clone and keep since it is coming from cells that may have aged and are slow to continue propagating? Doing this is pale in comparison to just isolating from spore, correct?
I feel like I should abandon some of the TC I have on agar that are from old transfers, but I don't know.
Edited by ob1kinsmokey (09/13/17 01:52 PM)
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cronicr



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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: ob1kinsmokey] 1
#24626402 - 09/13/17 01:57 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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The 3rd n 4h thing I don't really consider age a factor I simply don't do it because you got no general idea of what your gonna get...you rarely get clusters in those flushes..often get larger fruits but it means almost nothing lol
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Morelman
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: cronicr] 2
#24626643 - 09/13/17 03:28 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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If you shut down cell division, you stop senescence.
There are two ways to do this completely. Dessication and suspension in sterilized, deionized/distilled water. In both instances, cell division ceases and the mycelium goes into statis.
Culture slants only slow down cell division. Senescence happens slowly, but is not stopped.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Morelman] 1
#24626720 - 09/13/17 03:54 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Morelman said: There are two ways to do this completely. Dessication and suspension in sterilized, deionized/distilled water. In both instances, cell division ceases and the mycelium goes into statis.
Id like to see your info on that
From what ive learned dessication and slant storage has revival percentage drop off dramatically with time. Then the fear is perhaps selection of survival mutants rather than something representative of what you wanted stored. Distilled water storage probably works on par with slant storage in the order of 3-5 years with proper conditions
Deep freezing yeast to -196c was the new way since it preserved cultures better and not only that but revival usually went better with more than a fraction of a percentage survival rates after years of storage. Which means greater chance of non mutants and retaining the culture variability to a higher degree.
This method was pioneered by miller brewing company and now is a standard for fungi storage
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Morelman
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Morelman] 1
#24626771 - 09/13/17 04:15 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Too confusing to provide an analogy that wouldn't require further explanation...
Edited by Morelman (09/13/17 04:25 PM)
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cronicr



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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Morelman] 1
#24626780 - 09/13/17 04:18 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Morelman said: If you shut down cell division, you stop senescence.
There are two ways to do this completely. Dessication and suspension in sterilized, deionized/distilled water. In both instances, cell division ceases and the mycelium goes into statis.
Culture slants only slow down cell division. Senescence happens slowly, but is not stopped.
The idea isn't to stop cell division it's to expand without repercussions
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Morelman] 3
#24626794 - 09/13/17 04:22 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Morelman said: Too confusing to explain...
If you don't get it why did you say it. Im interested in the complicated shit
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Morelman
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: cronicr] 1
#24626795 - 09/13/17 04:22 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Impossible.
Everything dies. Even clones.
The best you can do is take multiple samples of cloned material and put them all in statis. Revive as little of each sample as you need until it dies of senescence. Repeat until you no longer have material waiting in statis.
Edited by Morelman (09/13/17 04:41 PM)
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Morelman] 1
#24626830 - 09/13/17 04:33 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Morelman said: Impossible
Everything dies. Even clones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_immortality
here's some interesting reading for y'all
Quote:
The ability to regenerate the hyphal tips continuously gives the fungi the potential for indefinite growth, corroborated by the discovery of a more than 1500-year-old fungal colony of Armillaria bulbosa spread over a large forested area in North America (Smith et al., 1992). Because of hyphal fusions and perforated septa, the fungal colony is a cytoplasmic continuum in which aged or dysfunctional organelles – the nuclei and mitochondria – can be recycled and replaced by the migration of functional copies from other cellular compartments. Additionally, their multinuclear condition enables any potentially deleterious mutant nuclear gene to be complemented by its functional allele in other nuclei. These unique features of fungi undoubtedly contribute to their immortality.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1574-6968.2007.01027.x/pdf
yeast have a different mechanism, they're anuploid and or polyploid so good copies tend to fix anything that goes wrong. in this way yeast repair themselves to basic immortality if humans give them the right conditions.
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rhizoRider
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: bodhisatta]
#24626844 - 09/13/17 04:38 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Following for hopes ppl chat about woodlovers cultures. If fed every few yrs- I see no reason they quit. Shit gets bigger bigger .................. I'm out of room lol
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Boogieman47
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: bodhisatta]
#24626846 - 09/13/17 04:39 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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How come gourmet growers will see it more often the cube growers ?? I know gourmet you do alot more g2g transfers but do you on large scale grows clone more often?
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Boogieman47]
#24626861 - 09/13/17 04:42 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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might have a lot more to do with sterility and the ability to keep your own cultures around that long vs buying a new one now and then to get something 100% clean. I've been to a few gourmet mushroom farms in the Midwest and most of the cube growers on here have better agar culturing skills honestly. Some of them wouldn't even be in business if they didn't have a reliable place to order spawn from.
same goes for other kinds of stress. We're not growing any of these species anywhere near similarly to their natural way. oyster mycelium grows in trees, not on spawn. these kinds of stresses may inadvertently make cultures get lethargic sort of like obese humans.
Fungi also can get sick, disease by bacteria, other fungi, and even viruses(which seems a little rare for us).
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Morelman
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Boogieman47]
#24626873 - 09/13/17 04:46 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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It takes more cell divisions to colonize a 20lb bag of (commercial) spawn than a quart jar of (hobby) spawn.
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Boogieman47
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: bodhisatta]
#24626887 - 09/13/17 04:49 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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So because adding more nutes in the spawn can over time fuck with the myc for oysters ?? Im sure grain has more nutes then what they are used to from wood right? ..
So the reason they g2g so far is once they get clean spawn they just run with it is what it sounds like to me haha if their agar isnt up to par
Imagine a flowhood big enough to g2g 20lb bags haha ...
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Boogieman47]
#24626899 - 09/13/17 04:51 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've seen a farm do open air g2g they order spawn bags. they would sterilize their own and pour bag to bag in a little room with the vents closed and lots of alcohol. They said they lose about 20% but it's worth getting more bang for your buck out of the bought spawn. I was cringing on the inside. That's what they do in sub Saharan Africa, and then they call spawn seeds lol.
it's people like this that write cultivation books, and then say they've been doing it 20 years and made a living off of it so they must know what the hell they're doing,
meanwhile there's people lightyears ahead of them.
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cronicr



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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Morelman]
#24626919 - 09/13/17 04:55 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Morelman said: Impossible.
Everything dies. Even clones.
The best you can do is take multiple samples of cloned material and put them all in statis. Revive as little of each sample as you need until it dies of senescence. Repeat until you no longer have material waiting in statis.
You're going a compete different direction lol...im talking grain expansion and how much you can get away with before a loss in performance your talking about storage
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Boogieman47
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: cronicr]
#24626937 - 09/13/17 05:02 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: I've seen a farm do open air g2g they order spawn bags. they would sterilize their own and pour bag to bag in a little room with the vents closed and lots of alcohol. They said they lose about 20% but it's worth getting more bang for your buck out of the bought spawn. I was cringing on the inside. That's what they do in sub Saharan Africa, and then they call spawn seeds lol.
it's people like this that write cultivation books, and then say they've been doing it 20 years and made a living off of it so they must know what the hell they're doing,
meanwhile there's people lightyears ahead of them.
Ya thats crazy i cringe enough working in front of my hood ... plenty of people on here have shown any open air anything is bad enough let alone bad technique in an sab or flowhoid ...
And a 20% on a multimillion dollar scale isnt nothin to be ok with haha that would be like 5 years of work for some of us .
Quote:
cronicr said:
Quote:
Morelman said: Impossible.
Everything dies. Even clones.
The best you can do is take multiple samples of cloned material and put them all in statis. Revive as little of each sample as you need until it dies of senescence. Repeat until you no longer have material waiting in statis.
You're going a compete different direction lol...im talking grain expansion and how much you can get away with before a loss in performance your talking about storage
Well and why wouldnt you expand that culture to 10+ slants you would have young fresh cultures for your lifetime ?? Shit i run the same culture on agar atleast through 6 months before switching to something else
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Boogieman47
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Boogieman47]
#24626941 - 09/13/17 05:04 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ok so the consenus is 3 g2g before we say its a no no right? So if i took one jar g2g'd to 10 then to 100... 1000 jars later id be at my third generation? But in gourmet i heard they run those out for awhile?
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cronicr



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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Boogieman47]
#24626946 - 09/13/17 05:05 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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That's a general guideline but every true strain is different
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Morelman
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: cronicr]
#24626950 - 09/13/17 05:07 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm just saying proper storage, in stasis, and metered use of those genetics will extend its life. Senescence is inevitable and it's in direct relation to the number of cell divisions it takes to colonize spawn/substrate and create a fruitbody.
Edited by Morelman (09/13/17 06:03 PM)
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Boogieman47
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: cronicr]
#24626959 - 09/13/17 05:11 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Youre talkin for edibles or actives or both? I was talkin with bodhi briefly on it about isolates ... i was under the impression this whoke time a true isolate is one single strain but he said an iso can be multiple strains in one i forget the corret term he used ...
But he said in gourmet you can have an isolate that is more of an identical match .. i know im getting it wrong of how exactly he put it but im sure he will correct me lmao
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Morelman]
#24626966 - 09/13/17 05:12 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Morelman said:
Senescence is inevitable and it's in direct relation to the number of cell divisions it takes to colonize spawn/substrate and create a fruitbody.
that's a very reductionist way to look at it. it's already been proven to be more complex than that especially in fungi which some have the ability to repair themselves and resist damage to telomeres.
the whole reason I asked the question to others like workman was because there are some species of fungi that don't succumb to senescence, or at least seem to fix it faster than it happens.
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Morelman
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Boogieman47]
#24626973 - 09/13/17 05:14 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Putting a culture to ten slants won't do much. They will all senesce/age at the same rate. Mycelium in slants will still divide and thus senesce.
In statis, they will not divide.
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cronicr



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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Boogieman47]
#24627012 - 09/13/17 05:27 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Boogieman47 said: Youre talkin for edibles or actives or both? I was talkin with bodhi briefly on it about isolates ... i was under the impression this whoke time a true isolate is one single strain but he said an iso can be multiple strains in one i forget the corret term he used ...
But he said in gourmet you can have an isolate that is more of an identical match .. i know im getting it wrong of how exactly he put it but im sure he will correct me lmao
Polyculture? We know how to stop or slow it...the question remains though
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: cronicr]
#24627019 - 09/13/17 05:29 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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an isolate is single sector growth. which may be a polyculture or a monoculture.
a monoculture is a single strain with only the genetic information from two monokaryons
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cronicr



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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: hamloaf]
#24627025 - 09/13/17 05:31 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
hamloaf said: Does it exist, or does it not? If senescence does exist to what degree does it affect our grows? Have you ever experianced senescence first hand? If senescence doesn't exist what the heck good is a p-value then? I've noticed weakened culture from transferring cloned culture too many times, as well as too many g2gs.
With cubes I've yet to see an issue but never needed more then 3 g2g transfers...pans I've yet to go past 2...i ran my shiitake culture too hard after 4 and the colonized and consolidated and fruited poorly
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Boogieman47
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: cronicr]
#24627045 - 09/13/17 05:38 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ya that pic you showed made me realize ive had a few isolates but never thought i had due to the fruits were of different sizes ...
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cronicr



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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Boogieman47]
#24627051 - 09/13/17 05:41 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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In theory most me cultures will outlast monocultures
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Boogieman47]
#24627061 - 09/13/17 05:44 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Boogieman47 said: Ya that pic you showed made me realize ive had a few isolates but never thought i had due to the fruits were of different sizes ...
conditions still play a huge roll. not only that but expression too, not every cell will express genes the same way so there's still variance even in monocultures.
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Boogieman47
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: bodhisatta]
#24627071 - 09/13/17 05:51 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Ya ive never tried for isolates buti will do tons of transfer i make 3 plates per plate so it just happens haha heres from the same culture my pe#2 clone i guess if you look they still have the same characteristics a few big ones and mostly smaller/medium size fruits ... i had those master spawn jars in a fridge for 6 months and luckily i did cause i was able to reclone since i lost all my other cuktures ...
But im 3 fir 3 on mislabeling my jars lmao i have a pan, illusion weaver, and another mystery cube marked pe2
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ob1kinsmokey
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Boogieman47]
#24632817 - 09/15/17 04:56 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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So im waiting to spawn a bunch of grain right now because im worried its going to be a waste of substrate. By the sounds of the threads ive read, 4-5 transfers since May shouldnt be a big deal, but the way these jars are fruiting have me worried. Can you guys give your input? Are these fruiting issues more likely senescence related, or typical other factors? https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24632503
Edited by ob1kinsmokey (09/15/17 04:57 PM)
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tombosley8
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: ob1kinsmokey]
#24633296 - 09/15/17 06:28 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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As far as LC goes, I am very sure I've experienced senescence or some form of weakening that I could only blame on over expansion.
Maybe there was another factor at hand but after expanding the lc to 10 and then those 10 to 10 more each and any further expansion after that showed a lot of downgrading such as slower recovery, growth, and less fruiting capability.
This was an lc started with a LI of a ms culture transferred a few times on agar.
Maybe LC has a higher degree of cell expansion? Or maybe like I said it was another factor weakening my culture?
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Edited by tombosley8 (09/15/17 06:32 PM)
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Boogieman47
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: tombosley8]
#24633302 - 09/15/17 06:31 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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I see pretty weak growth in lc even on the first jar not sure if it just has to do with being too rich or not but a2g looks way healthier in my experience
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Morelman
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Boogieman47]
#24633375 - 09/15/17 06:47 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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LC doesn't halt cell division. It has to be used quickly. LI (mycelium suspended in sterile, distilled/deionized water) will suspend cell division.
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tombosley8
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Morelman]
#24633385 - 09/15/17 06:49 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm talking about reaching senescence through expansion not long term storage.
I've never stored anything long enough to see anything like that.
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Morelman
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: tombosley8]
#24633418 - 09/15/17 07:04 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
tombosley8 said: I'm talking about reaching senescence through expansion not long term storage. ... Maybe LC has a higher degree of cell expansion?
Maybe, cells divide in LC at least as much as it vegetatively does anywhere else. It's getting closer to senescence with every division.
Expansion has nothing to do with it. You can expand baby food jars more times than quart jars. It's about how many cell divisions take place.
You could theoretically g2g baby food jars to, at least, g10 without any sign of senescence. That's a guess, but within the realm of possibility.
Edited by Morelman (09/15/17 07:14 PM)
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tombosley8
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Morelman]
#24633453 - 09/15/17 07:12 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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expansion is making a small amount of mycelium into large amounts doesn't matter what size jar or type of media.
So the amount of mycelium you create from a culture is a factor in senescence, right?
Isn't cell division just that, the growth of the mycelium?
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: tombosley8] 1
#24633489 - 09/15/17 07:21 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Cells can only divide x amount of times before senescence starts to set in. Cell division and expansion are independent of each other.
The more spawn you use, the more times you can expand the culture. The mycelium doesn't have to divide as much to reach full colonization at each g2g.
More g2g expansions can be done before senescence if you double your spawn (1-2-4-8-16-32) than (1-10-100). However the former will be just as senescenced at 100 jars as 100 jars of the latter. And the former will take longer. Senescence is unavoidable.
If you only need 8 jars of spawn, use the former method of doubling your spawn and you'll be further away from senescence.
Edited by Morelman (09/15/17 08:05 PM)
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Morelman] 1
#24644976 - 09/19/17 08:22 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Why Some Fungi Senesce and Others Do Not An Evolutionary Perspective on Fungal Senescence
Organisms with a ‘unitary body plan’ – such as many mobile animals – have a determinate structure composed of strict numbers of body parts, specialised organs and a separate germ line. Unitary organisms are arguably all subject to the process of senescence, resulting in death even under protected idealised conditions. Organisms with ‘modular body plans’, however – including plants, fungi and (sessile) animals such as hydroids and bryozoans – seem to escape this process and are potentially immortal. Modular organisms are composed of multiple genetically identical vegetative modules that may remain attached or become separated to form physiologically independent clones. Here all cells are in principle totipotent and capable of expansion and reproduction, so death of parts of a modular organism does not necessarily cause the death of the whole organism (Figure 17.1). In plant biology these modules are generally referred to as ‘ramets’. The ensemble of ramets that makes up a single genetic entity is generally referred to as a ‘genet’. The body plan of an organism has major implications for the wayselection can act. In modular organisms, selection rarely acts directly on the genet: the unit of selection is usually the ramet. Fungi are considered to be modular organisms with no clear distinction of a germ line. With the expansion of the mycelium, chances for reproduction are expected to increase,and each unit under favourable circumstances may produce offspring (Figure 17.1B, right). Fungi with such modular body plans are expected to be long-lived, as most fungi indeed seem to be. However, some fungi exist that do senesce, and their growth often seems to be limited by space or time. For these fungi, we consider the term ‘pseudounitary’ (Figure 17.1B, centre), as life history details and ecological conditions constrain the size of the soma and the opportunities for reproduction. In this chapter we discuss why fungi are usually long-lived and why there are exceptions to this. We predict life history traits and ecological conditions that favour the evolution of fungal senescence. Finally, we discuss the proximate mechanisms of fungal senescence in the light of this evolutionary context.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: bodhisatta]
#24644997 - 09/19/17 08:26 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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PM me if you would like 19 more PDFs on the topic
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hamloaf
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: bodhisatta]
#24645030 - 09/19/17 08:37 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well thanks for those, becuase I am more confused about the subject than I was when I first started this thread.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: hamloaf]
#24645066 - 09/19/17 08:51 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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If workman said senescence is complicated and him and his colleagues don't much understand it I would believe not too many ppl do in general.
C10 had told me once he had some cultures stored in the fridge w long time and they never grew well adter that. he thought they went bad but revived them on different plates eventually and they started to work as expected. I think most people would have blamed senescence in that case but clearly something else was at play.
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eatyualive
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: bodhisatta] 3
#24645339 - 09/19/17 10:37 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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ive stored some cultures for 6 years and had decent revival and successful flushes of cubes. some only go about 2-3 years stroed like that. but others like burma and tas have lasted a very long time.
recently i revived a stem tissue stored in a syringe from 2014 tex yellow cap clone and it flushed out very well. definitely not as vigorous but it grew a decent flush. i tried to revive it on agar with no luck. but injecting it into a pf jar proved success.

thread.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24333891
this is a clone of AA+ from 2015 stored in the fridge on centrifuge tubes. just agar.( i could show about 15 different grows of this one but here is one.)

i always try to push things to their max just to see how resilient nature can be for fun. for instance, i used to store grain masters in the fridge for up to a year. but only the masters. when i tried storing a few g2g gens they weren't as vigorous and would contam or show weak growth rather quickly. the longest ive stored a master of grain in the fridge is 2 years and had a successful grow. and by that i mean it fruited one flush and gave me fruit. didn't contam. but was pretty much done. definitely showed signs of weakness. but in the end, its really fucking cool that cubes can last that long.
one thing recently ive been having fun with is reviving old prints. ive successfully revived a print from 2003 and 2001. i have the print labeled "old print" on its 2nd transfer now and i will go to grain soon. its looking good. actually germinated rather quickly for a 16 year old print. i thought i was lucky with the 2003 print.
so here is a shot of those prints. as you can see these were taken long before i knew how to take proper prints. i would take like 10 caps on one big piece of foil and fold it up all shitty. but hell it germinated.


here is the 2nd transfer on tea agar. i accidentally hacked this one to shit due to the agar not being very firm.

this is an example of the revived print from 2003.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21820582
this entire thread consists of grows from a 2007 liquid culture syringe of oysters. its still going strong. definitely not what it would be as a fresh culture. but ill be damned if this culture won't die.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21744280
here is a pictures of the syringes. i use one drop per year and grow it out once a year since 2007.

yep 10 years this culture has lasted. and its not stored on a slant or anything. just liquid culture in a syringe, kept in a dorm fridge for that long.
nature is cool
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: eatyualive] 1
#24645405 - 09/19/17 11:16 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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I like your examples I think a lot of people jump on senescence as a scapegoat for other issues.
That article/chapter I posted also talks about feeding cultures too much nutrition causes them to perform like shit and age early. While starving them increases most fungi's ability to cope with stressors and reproduce longer.
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eatyualive
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: bodhisatta]
#24645745 - 09/20/17 05:09 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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That would make sense as to why the stem tissue stored in water does last so long. As far as the liquid culture oysters, it does have a nutrient mix I it, and I'm not sure what that is. The fridge also helps. I dont think the cultures would last that long stored at room temperature.
Edited by eatyualive (09/20/17 08:44 AM)
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catnip40
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: eatyualive]
#24645788 - 09/20/17 06:01 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Adas
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: catnip40]
#24807926 - 11/26/17 03:27 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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With mycelia in natural habitats, I think they can stay viable for so long because there's constant influx of new genetics from spores the mushrooms drop. IIRC, mycelium can send cell nuclei long distances, that way the gene pool could be kept "fresh". Even if it couldn't, the senescent cells would just die off and be replaced by new mycelia from spores.
That's how people can have Woodlover beds producing for decades.
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Piaseski
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Adas]
#24807956 - 11/26/17 03:44 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Adas said: With mycelia in natural habitats, I think they can stay viable for so long because there's constant influx of new genetics from spores the mushrooms drop. IIRC, mycelium can send cell nuclei long distances, that way the gene pool could be kept "fresh". Even if it couldn't, the senescent cells would just die off and be replaced by new mycelia from spores.
That's how people can have Woodlover beds producing for decades.
There's that Armillaria ostoyae they think is between 2400 - 8500 years old, insane to think of the genetics going on in something that big and ancient, started from a spore.
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catnip40
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Re: Senescence Discussion Thread. [Re: Piaseski]
#24808182 - 11/26/17 05:44 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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